From the Arizona ASA website, cap tip Kary Moore for final bracket
Cap tip to Jim Williamson for updates II and III
Winner’s Bracket final: Houston Carnage 3, Lacey, WA 0
Championship game: Lacey WA 4, Houston Carnage 3
“If” game: Not played. Forfeit win for Houston Carnage, 2011 Champions. (Lacey left to catch flights home).
Click here for 2011 ASA “C” West final bracket or view below.
Place M/R Team Name Hometown Record
1st M HOUSTON CARNAGE Houston, TX 6-1
2nd M LACEY A’S Lacey, WA 6-2
3rd M THE BIG EASY Prescott, AZ 5-2
4th K-CLUB Silverdale, WA 4-2
5th EAST BAY BASHERS San Ramon, CA 6-2
5th IVORY HEADWEAR Portland, OR 3-2
7th WILLCOX Willcox, AZ 4-2
7th PAGE BRAKE Herriman, UT 3-3
9th TUCSON RATTLERS Tucson., AZ 3-2
9th COLTON DIRTBAGS Colton, CA 1-2
9th BLACK CURTAIN Sun Valley, AZ 1-2
9th STOCKTON BLACKSOX Stockton, CA 1-2
13th REZ DAWGS Lemoore, CA 3-2
13th CANVAS TATTOO & DEMC Prescott Valley, AZ 2-2
13th ALBUQUERQUE HITMEN Albuquerque, NM 2-2
13th PV EYE CARE Prescott Valley, AZ 1-3
17th PRIMETIME FASTPITCH El Cajon, CA 2-2
17th THE PEASANT & THE PEAR Hayward, CA 2-2
17th LIBERTY FASTPITCH Orange, CA 2-2
17th ROSEVILLE EAGLES Citrus Heights, CA 2-2
17th SO CAL PANTERAS II Whittier, CA 0-3
17th ANGELS Phoenix, AZ 0-3
17th ARIZONA BREWERS Window Rock, AZ 0-3
17th CLEO’S AUTO Federal Way, WA 0-3
25th PRESCOTT PATRIOTS Prescott, AZ 0-3
25th ALBUQUERQUE RISERS Albuquerque, NM 0-3
ASA Fast Pitch Men’s Class C West Individual Award Winners
MVP..: Derrick Kennedy
Batting Champion..: Doug Cain
HR Champion..: Jenner Christiansen
First Team
Position Player Team
Pitcher Austin, Scott Houston Carnage
Pitcher Koster, Darren Lacey A’s
Pitcher Camacho, Daniel The Big Easy
Catcher Carmona, Freddy Houston Carnage
Outfield Monaco, Chris The Big Easy
Outfield Tadeo, Marquez The Big Easy
Outfield McCauley, Sean Lacey A’s
Outfield Warner, Cory Houston Carnage
Utility Cave, Kenny K-Club
Utility Koster, Darren Lacey A’s
Utility Kennedy, Derrick Houston Carnage
Infield Cain, Doug Houston Carnage
Infield Aponte, Jason Ivory Headwear
Infield Christiansen, Jenner East Bay Bashers
Infield Moraga, Gabe The Big Easy
Second Team
Position Player Team
Pitcher Maddox, Will East Bay Bashers
Pitcher Wiens, Harvey Lacey A’s
Pitcher Kolda, Danny K-Club
Catcher Tyacke, Michael Lacey A’s
Outfield Gonzalez, Carlos K-Club
Outfield Michael, Darin Lacey A’s
Outfield Broberg, Robert Ivory Headwear
Outfield Wells, Cornell East Bay Bashers
Utility Christiansen, Mathew East Bay Bashers
Utility Kolda, Rick K-Club
Utility Walters, Donner East Bay Bashers
Infield Contreras, Mike Houston Carnage
Infield Bitterman, Randy K-Club
Infield Welsh, Ryan K-Club
Infield Palomarez, Jake The Big Easy
Wow how was Carnage able to play class C again when they placed 3rd last year. Classic case of ASA not following their own rules again.
The ASA rule that appears to cover is 507 (H) (02) on page 60 of the ASA Code for 2011:
http://downloads.asasoftball.com/about/pdf/2011ASACode2.pdf
The rule states:
507 (H) (02). Mandatory Team Reclassification.
There were 25 teams in last year’s ASA C West, which would mean the top 2.5 teams, or ostensibly the top 3 teams, using the ASA “round up” rule.
There are provisions for appeal (to escape reclassification), and no indication if there were four or more players from last year’s team.
The ASA website for 2010 denotes only the top two teams with the scarlet “M” (next to the team name) which appears to denote mandatory reclassification, while 2011 (above list) shows 3 teams getting bumped among a field of 26 teams, so it would appear that the ASA determined that Carnage was legal to compete as a “C” team in 2011.
2010:
-Jim/FPW
All indications was that Carnage did have at least 5 and probably more players for last years 3rd place finish. Do not lie and say oh they are a whole new team this year. If thats the case then we should all be allowed to say that. Why is it that one Houston team can play in Class C west and Another (GEO PER) can finish 3rd in Class C East. Does this mean we can choose what side we want to play in next year. Thanks ASA for ruining what was once a great game!
Good comment,my son’s team won 2 Kansas state ASA C tournaments ,the team and all players were reclassified B.
My friends and I have won the Fourth of July in San Antonio the last 3 years maybe you’re son’s Kansas team should come down here.
Wow… “Speak Your Mind” must’ve lost this past weekend. Congrats Carnage.
Left a “National” championship game and didnt even stick around to play it out?
Weak Lacey’s. Real weak.
Here’s what happened…the team had to leave due to a few of the players needing to return to work or else ramifications would have arisen for them…enough players that a full team couldn’t have been fielded for the final. Does it suck? Yep. It is also certainly embarrassing. The travel scheduling could have been a lot better handled, but it’s water under the bridge now. The team is dealing with it.
Maybe water under the bridge to you, but for the 3rd place teams on down, im sure they dont think so.
Hopefully the ASA will learn that playing games on monday is a piss poor idea and start games earlier thursday or Wednesday night if necessary. Monday should be travel day or used only as needed in case of rain. Just another example of why the ASA is a joke.
who gives a damn….that carnage team was the best team out there…they beat lacey twice (i believe)…this is lower level ball here people…everyone seemed to have a great time out there..some weak teams/some tuff teams but who really cares….carnage won it all and they will be bumped up…ask the 4th, 5th, and 6th place teams if they really care….
Who gives a damn? If you weren’t directly involved, you probably wouldn’t….but I was, so I guess I can say I do, or did. Let’s now address your comments.
1) The Houston team beat Lacey once, and Lacey beat them once. The “if” game was the unfortunate forfeit. So, Lacey showed it could compete with Houston. That was the worst part of the team having to leave early. If they had lost the first championship game, there naturally wouldn’t have been any issue.
2) Funny you ask “who cares”…some team members have been repeatedly asked by other players and fans about what happened, and why. So, clearly, some people out there cared, at least in a passing sense.
Regarding your comment about “lower level ball”… Regardless of the level of ball, you play to win, especially in a national tournament . If the ISCs and major ball were the only levels of this sport worth anything, publications like this one would have a lot less to write about.
Lacey..let me take some time to clarify my comment, dont get your panties in a bunch…the “who cares” was directed towards the complaints of Carnage placing high and not getting bumped up the year before…and for your information, my team played in this tournament and i can tell you this much, we are a lower team and i could care less if carnage placed high the year before or not…competition is such, and of course, we all play to win…it was nice to see so may teams make the drive to compete…alot of teams from norcal and socal…great weekend…all in all, the ball was great…BUT it does appear to me that Nafa does a hell of a lot better classifying the pitching…the “C” tourneys had a wide assortment of pitchers, young, old, hard throwing, or thumbers but it does appear their is a huge difference in how ASA classifies its pitching..the Carnage pitcher threw well, good stuff and the Lacey pitcher threw real hard…saw a couple of California pitchers throwing hard and a couple of old timers barely reaching 50 mph….
Thanks for the clarification. I apologize for misguiding my comments.
And we can agree that NAFA does a much better job in regard to pitcher classifications. That organization was designed for fastpitch only, and all their resources go into fastpitch. ASA is a crapshoot when it comes to mens fastpitch. One can probably argue that the top three teams, at least, could/should have gone “B” but there is literally no ASA “B” tournament to attend. I think they only had a few teams this year. Next year the Lacey team will be going NAFA.
Lacey, how are you going to complain after a tournament is over. If you had a gripe, you should have addressed it while you were at the tournament. It sounds an awful lot like you are a sore loser who can’t come to grips with the fact that you are only 2nd best. NAFA is far better at organizing things, but they are flawwed too. There is no easy way to do things when too many teams want to sand bag.
I wasnt at the C’s but I did follow it through many friends and I admit I was glued to the updates. I do really love the game, however, and did have these scattered thoughts:
Lets look at a key stat related to this matter – after all stats solve everything right? Ok, thats debatable. In the ASA C tournament, by my rough count, 20 out of 58 games were decided by 7 or more runs (lets assume mercy kills despite not knowing what inning exactly the game ended in). This means 35% of the games were mercy kills. If we look further we see that 12 of the 58 games were won by 10 or more runs (absolute blowouts) – thats 21% of the games played ending in complete blowouts. The mercy kill is certainly part of our game and we do live and die by it, but 10 run games suggest an imbalance of competitiveness.
Lets look at the most comparable tournament – the NAFA “A” division. 26 of the 91 games played were decided by 7 or more runs, or 29% overall ending in mercy rule. Where we can actually see the work that NAFA puts into the game is when we dig into the number of 10-run blow-outs. There were only 6 games of the 91 decided by 10 or more runs – 6 1/2%. This means that in NAFA, there were a full third less blowouts than in ASA. To me this pretty clearly shows that NAFA’s work on trying to keep things even is definitely a step in the right direction and is improving the game we love. While the blowouts still happen, there is a better balance of competitiveness.
So why does this imbalance occur and what do we do to bring about a utopian environment whence we can all play a 3-2, 8-inning nail-biter and have every game decided by one run? I believe there are two combating schools of thought :
1. The organization (ASA or NAFA, etc) says I can do it so Im gonna rerate whomever I can as low as possible and try to win everything I can. Afterall, its more fun to win. Im going to fill my team with the highest level players that I can find (and pay for them if I have to) with my sole focus on winning. Im not breaking any rules so all is well – if a C-team of noobs wants to play against my ISC all-stars at a C tournament then thats their problem because they could have done the same thing.
2. Winning is not the driving factor and does not control the actions I take. I want to play in competitive games and push my skillset and talent (or lack thereof in my perrsonal case) as far as I can. I want to play against the best athletes and push my teammates to get better through competing with people at or above my caliber. I live for the one-run game and despite being on the losing side Id rather battle to that end than play at a lower level than I believe I can compete at.
Now both philosophies have their merits – certainly a team that loses all the time because they try to compete over their heads will not be in existence for terribly long. A team that consistantly defeats its opponents through mercy kills may begin to find that route less challenging as time goes on (or maybe not). I dont really want to argue that either of these ways of thinking are right or wrong, only that they do exist.
In the old days, and I cannot claim to be a true old-timer but i guess fairly soon I can, I think the 2nd philosophy was more predominant as teams and players wanted to better themselves all they could. There were more teams, right down to the city level, and competitiion was fierce to even qualify for the nationals. To be a member of an A or B level team was a coveted honor. The C division was truly where young players started and developed.
We all know our game has declined. We know teams have folded and continued to fold at all levels. The leftover players gravitate toward the remaining teams and the overall skill level and talent has risen as the pool has shrunk. There are less events, less levels, less ways to enjoy the game so we are forced to enjoy the game however we can. But, through our actions we have made it difficult for new players to enter the game because we have effectively begun to eliminate a true “C” division. When a third of the games are decided by blow-outs we are effectively telling teams they should not be at the event and inevitably lose teams every year. Both the A and B division in ASA have shrunk to unsustainable levels and it is my opinion that they may not even exist next year unless some action is taken. Yes, probably 12 of the teams in the C should have gone B, but per philosophy #1 above (not saying right or wrong) they decided to go where they could be most successful.
It seems philosophy #1 has taken a hold of a great many teams and players and has had quite a detriment to any advancement of our game. The answer may actually start with the simple question to ask yourself as a manager, “regardless of what some organization lets me do, what level does my team actually belong?’ or as a player, “what level should I be playing in?” It is nieve and utopian to think we could transform our thinking in this way, but imagine if we did – might even see a resurgance of the game. I guess what Im getting at is that maybe at some point we can try to stop having organizers and associations force us to play up and actually just play where we belong for the sake of the game.
The ISC has really done some forward thinking by allowing the lower-budget teams a chance to play in the ISC II portion of the bracket. Perhaps if ASA decides to continue to leave such a desparity of competition in the same tournament they could adopt a similar approach.
Is winning so important its worth killing the game?
nice…thoroughly enjoyed your take on the nationals…..there were plenty of teams sandbagging it out in prescott, it was refreshing to see young teams (page brake jrs) rez teams and other legitimate “C” (NAFA “A” ) teams out there…asa needs to look at the pitchers they have re rated the last couple of years and place them where they belong…my take
Teams always sandbag. We played the California Lumberkings with Drotzman pitching and a lot of returning ISC II champions in the B in Prescott a couple of years ago. It was never so satisfying to beat them with the firepower that they brought to the tournament. They expected to walk through the tournament, only to finish 5th or 6th. I don’t think I have ever been to a national tournament where teams weren’t sandbagging. Until ASA wants to step up to the plate and give a crap about men’s fastpitch all anyone can do is cry about it. Even NAFA is flawed, though. They allowed a team that had no business play A-Major and win the tournament because they knew they weren’t good enough to win AA, then the next year that same team played AA-Major and lost to another texas team. I do like your point about properly managing the C tournament in ASA, but it has been and will continue to be a joke since ASA could care less about the Men’s game.
We placed third in the East because of poor planning, tourney went 8 hrs overtime and finished out with last day 1 hr games. This fastpitch game has always been about pitching. I remember playing in Burbank the late 80’s through 90’s. The teams had to approve the pitching for each other. Thats the way it should be. Only we the players know the caliber of these pitchers. Out of the 29 teams in our Nationals there were 10 real good C pitchers, 2 higher than C and the rest league guys. ASA never has anything about Mens fastpitch on their facebook page its BS. I think there would be more upper teams if they police the pitching better. If we want Mens fastpitch to grow again it needs to be publicized, not the great teams but the week night teams. There are a lot of ASA registered leagues and ASA does not mention them at all. They take the fee and throw the names in the trash. I would like to see NAFA try too take leagues from ASA and do a web page and publicize our great SPORT. put the game of slowpitch off the map
On the Geo Per team going to East we went last year because it was closer. A lot closer it was the same distance this year, so since we liked the people and other players we went there again. They seemed to have more of an even playing field as to the pitching last year also. We placed third and will move up to B, but not ASA. The ASA guys were rude, did not treat us like men and did a horrible job with the tourney. I hope NAFA takes Mens Fastpitch and promotes it like they preach. Our sport needs it.
All of our tournaments here in Texas are open. There are 4 of 15 teams that have a chance to win at any given tourney. If ASA got their sh** together maybe those 4 teams would think about going to A’s or B’s.